Note to the group.  When reading responses to my original post about why you
wouldn't want a lumpectomy, ask yourself, "do the responders seem to have
undergone a lumpectomy themselves?  Did they give any indication of having
undergone one?"  Also ask yourself, if they did not give any indication or
describe their own experiences, "did they seem defensive over this
procedure?"    If they seemed defensive, chances are they also have a
financial interest in this procedure.

I'm really interested in your story, Mary.  Gosh, another interesting person
from the UK.  I was out of the hospital about 17 hours after the operation.
As I mentioned in an earlier message, it's best to get such operations done
in the early week because when you get sent home there's no one to contact
when problems arise on a weekend.  I tried calling a health service here as
well as the hospital but everyone was away.

Again, as I mentioned in another message you probably haven't read yet, the
three types of things I had to have done beforehand were:

(1) The needle core biopsy (the one where they use a needle as thick as a
clothes hanger and pull pieces out).  This was done at a private clinic.

(2) The sentinal node biopsy
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/sentinel_node_biopsy/page6_em.htm
(which is the most painful and includes a couple of mammograms and the
injection of radioactive dye called Technetium C-99. (Technetium is the
stuff they use to detonate nuclear bombs.  It has a half life of 212,000
years compared to your smoke detector which has a half life of 50 years.
See the US Environmental report at
http://www.epa.gov/radiation/radionuclides/technetium.html which says that
1/4 of it never leaves the body, if injested, although medical officials
will tell you that it does.   This is done at the hospital where you get
your operation, the day before.

Doctors told me to note the word "injested" which they say is supposedly
more dangerous than if it's injected directly into your lymph nodes.
Somehow I can't help but feel the latter is true.

This procedure was to be used INSTEAD of blue dye because surgeons don't
like to use the blue dye because in some cases it kills people through shock
if they are allergic to it.

(3) The last procedure I had to undergo BEFORE THE OPERATION was the Needle
localization where they run the wire through your breast to mark it before
the operation.  One end of it is barbed.  You get that done about 3 hours
before you drive to the hospital for the operation, but at least they put
you to sleep before they pull it out.

After all of these procedures before the operation most women, I'm sure,
must be in terrible shock and pain.  I was especially, since my own mother
had only one simple biopsy and masectomy done all at once, and didn't have a
few weeks of extreme fright and pain like women with lumpectomies do.

I chickened out of the Sentinal node biopsy because my biopsy was still
hurting and I knew it would be painful enough to get the wires put in my
breast as it was.   I didn't like the thought of them constantly mutilating
my breast over and over again when it was already hurting so much from
previous procedures.   It all seemed so brutal and I didn't know how much
more pain I could undergo, plus after the cancer was first detected I
already had a couple of mammograms and sonograms and didn't want more long
mammograms all within only a very short period.

When I didn't get the Sentinal node biopsy because the brutality of it and
the radioactive components scared me off, they asked if they could use the
blue dye instead.

The trouble with these produres and the lumpectomies is that since they
don't take out as many lymph nodes, they aren't as safe on ADVANCED cancers
because some of the deeper nodes may contain cancer and they won't be
removed as they would be with a masectomy.  That's why you need much more
radiation with a lumpectomy than with a masectomy, and possibly even chemo
to boot.  I don't want to go for the radiation treatments because I have to
walk a total of 9 blocks each way to get to the hospital because we don't
have bus service directly to the hospital so it would cost $10 a day to
drive there and $10 a day for the parking.    It was bad enough walking
there with a broken ankle once or twice beforehand and I didn't go to the
courses I should have because it was just too much walking.   I may be able
to get a special pass for the parking but even so, at $10 a day in gas, over
a period of about 42 days, it would cost quite a bit.

You asked how a lumpectomy saves money and why it's my belief that hospitals
want to push this on people.   Health Canada is trying to push this on as
many people as they can.   Wealthier women such as the politician Belinda
Stronach and even the American star Christina  Applegate are probably well
informed of the pain and concerns about all of these things so they both
opted for the double masectomy right off.  It's the less wealthy that are
more likely to become victims of lumpectomies.

If they can get people out of the hospital in a day (in some cases they
don't even use general anaesthetic -- just local), it saves them tons of
money.

Also, in Canada, if you get a masectomy you are entitled to free breast
reconstruction afterward, whereas with a lumpectomy you have a long 4-inch
scar both across your chest and under your arm so they save money by not
having to give you a breast reconstruction.   They don't give you any sort
of home care either.   You are left on your own, basically, with numbers to
call if you need help, EXCEPT for that weekend when you really need it.  So
in the end, I think women are actually worse off with a lumpectomy than with
a masectomy, not only with regard to the fact that those undergoing
lumpectomy have to undergo more painful procedures beforehand and probably
suffer much more afterward also due to the swelling, (which is so great you
fear the steri-tape will pull apart).  Women with a lumpectomy will have to
live with the scar and won't be entitled to free breast reconstruction as
women who get a masectomy would be.   This saves thousands of dollars on
each woman I'm sure, so you can see why hospitals would want to encourage
this versus a masectomy.  I don't think they're as concerned about health
these days as they are about costs.

I didn't have a drain tube which also seems to be a new trend) and in spite
of the painful swelling, I think I'm just as glad, becuase they're so poorly
designed and sometimes fall out and things and can cause infection.
However, that did result in my breast becoming as big as half a basketball
compared to my normal breast which is between orange and grapefruit size).
Eventually the swollen breast should be slightly smaller than the other,
although I fear ending up with awful stretch marks and a hanging breast.
The swelling goes down fairly quickly after 3 days but at first it hurts
quite a bit because it goes into the fatty part even behind your back if you
fall asleep on your back so you have to change positions all the time to
spread the fluid all over.   You also have to wear a bra day and night
because it really hurts to move or to bend.

Gosh, Bea, thanks for that.

I didn't like to say those things outright but I admire your guts for doing
it - and I support you 100%.

The effect of such negative posts on newcomers to the group are what concern
me more than anything else and you got that message across. Thank you,

<very big hugs>

Mary

What you don't understand is that most women I went through the procedure
with were upset because they had been misled by people who had previous
operations that they were all honey and sugar.
That's what shocks women so baldy.  It's not knowing the things beforehand
that they need to know, and having a very very strong sense that people are
withholding a lot of things from them as if they were babies that needed to
be pampered with a feather touch.

People automatically assume that most women would prefer to be like lab
rats, and simply say, "Go at it.  I don't want to know.  Or tell me only
about the honey and sugar please!  I don't want to know anything else."

The truth is that most women are NOT like that.    I am one who has
discovered that if I prepare for the very worst, things are never as bad as
I thought, and I can then deal with the situation better.   It's far better
to suffer from fear for two weeks and be absolutely delighted for the next
year that the fear didn't come to fruition as much as I thought it would,
than to enjoy happiness and pampering assurance for 2 weeks and then have to
take a year to overcome the shock of learning otherwise.

Most women don't want to be treated like babies.  They want all of the
knowlege they can get their hands on, good and bad beforehand, which they
truly need in order to make good sound decisions, and I'm very happy I did
find out a lot beforehand and didn't allow others to make the decisions for
me,  because I was able to avoid the sentinal node biopsy that way.  Women
today want to be much more empowered and informed than women of the last
generation who basically believed in the theory that doctors no more than I
can trust them to do anything they want.

Never assume that all women are like you and want to be led into things
blindly, sweetly, and softly, with kid gloves.   Women who fear knowing too
much about their breast cancer won't be visiting sites like this anyway.
They can be drowned in all of the honey and sugar they want from their local
breast cancer society.  Local breast cancer societies offer so much support
that women don't need the internet to get more support.   They need it to
find out INFORMATION that those who smother them with softness won't give
them.

You can get angry that I'm not the same type of woman as you are if you
want, and you can try to insist that only your type be permitted to post to
this group so as to continue drowning women of your type in sugar and honey,
but so can I.  As far as I'm concerned no news group is valuable unless it
offers opinions from all sides, for women of all types.  There is nothing to
stop any woman at all from hitting the NEXT key, if she reads just 3 words
that are too frightening to her.  She simply won't read any article that
scares her if that's what she wants to avoid.
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